PvE vs PvP - is this possible? - Page 2 - Guild Wars Forums

moriz · Jan 30, 2007, 02:43 PM // 14:43

if you think there should be "epic" characters created by awesome equipment, then you are playing the wrong game. the game you want to try would be WoW.

however, there are "epic" players. their characters are no better than the average pvp ready character, but the way they play the game made them truly amazing.

the one thing you should remember from this thread is: GW is not D2 with better graphics. to get good, you play good, and that's all that matters.

Michiel · Jan 30, 2007, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cow Tale

anyone on this forum will tell u, if u dont learn what the skills do, and how to use them efficiently, ull just be another corpse waiting to get resed. so its quite relevant. u dont have to listen tho, ull understand once u actually play the game.

It will be relevant if I actually buy the game. But I'm currently enquiring about the features of the game, to decide if I should buy it. While I like the team-based PvP, which allows for clever skill-combos with a teammate, I am somewhat disappointed by the fact that items seem very uninteresting. I like games in which characters can assemble an outfit which should, on paper, qualify them for immediate use of a coffin, but which in fact has just the right combination of special abilities to enable a certain odd, but unexpectedly effective way of playing. A small reward for the sneaky bastard that spotted the synergy. And to prevent everybody from copying the trick, the items should not be so easily accessible.
But whatever. If I find some friends interested in playing this game, the skill-combo-strategies just might be enough fun.

moriz · Jan 30, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56

unfortunately, the game you want to play does not exist. GW does come close though. your equipment generally won't make or break a character, unless it is truly inferior (using starter armor, etc).

and no, the game is not all about the skills you bring. how you play it will matter greatly.

Michiel · Jan 30, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

if you think there should be "epic" characters created by awesome equipment, then you are playing the wrong game. the game you want to try would be WoW.

however, there are "epic" players. their characters are no better than the average pvp ready character, but the way they play the game made them truly amazing.

the one thing you should remember from this thread is: GW is not D2 with better graphics. to get good, you play good, and that's all that matters.

Once again, I'm NOT talking about awesome equipment. I'm talking about crappy equipment cleverly combined to create an advantage. I don't want to play WoW because there are not enough effectively different characters. I don't to play Diablo2 because it rewards players with too much free time. Guildwars seems to be a step in the right direction for me, since it rewards skill. That's good. But I'm looking for a game that rewards intelligence and strategy.

Michiel · Jan 30, 2007, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

unfortunately, the game you want to play does not exist. GW does come close though. your equipment generally won't make or break a character, unless it is truly inferior (using starter armor, etc).

and no, the game is not all about the skills you bring. how you play it will matter greatly.

Finally, someone who understands what I mean. Forget my last post, this comment shows that you know what I'm talking about. And since you understand what I want and claim that Guildwars comes close to it, I'm going to take your word for it. I'll buy it this afternoon. I'll just hope that the whole "team-based PvP" deal makes strategy matter enough - and, of course, post my ideas on the local suggestions forum, if there is any

ss1986v2 · Jan 30, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michiel

Alright, some mixed reactions here. I've heard one thing I like:

"you have to work and tweak your build so that it both is able to fit into your teams strategy"

That's good. If you've got steady teams, there's room for clever skill combinations with a teammate. That just might persuade me to buy it after all

good, cause thats what GW offers: a competitive, skill based pvp game. choosing what builds to run, how to run them, and how they work with your teammates is the key to the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michiel

This was just a stupid reply. I was clearly talking about DIFFERENT items (I'm used to items which give you bonus spells and stuff like that, that really affect the way you play) - not strictly better ones. And I definitely do think that choosing items that combine well with your skills and your play style takes more skill than cramming all the "spell X counters spell y" info into your head.

no you wont find uber weapons that let you have bonus skills no one else has. weapons in GW are mostly generic, aside from cool looking skins that dont effect the weapons performance. ill give you a quick example:

basic axe stats

* Slashing damage 6-28 (req. 9 Axe Mastery)
* Damage +15% (while Health is above 50%)
* Life stealing: 3
* Health Regeneration - 1
* Health + 30

the 6-28 dmg is the max for an axe. the 15% dmg modifier is one of the many inscriptions you could add to the axe (max one). the life steal/health regen is one of several axe haft mods to choose (again max one). and the +30 health is one of the axe grips you can choose. and thats about it. no bonus running faster with a weapon, no hidden skills that are unlocked, no super KO power. as for a typical caster weapon:

basic fire staff

* Energy +10
* Fire damage: 11-22 (req. 9 Fire Magic)
* Halves casting time of Fire Magic spells (Chance: 20%)
* Halves skill recharge of spells (Chance: 20%)
* Energy +5
* Enchantments last 20% longer

the +10 energy and 11-22 dmg are the natural maxes for a staff. the halves skill recharge is an inherent mod. the halves casting time is the inscription. the +5 energy is the staff head mod, and the 20% longer enchants is the staff wrapping mod. and again, there are many possible cominations with all the different mods available.

the weapons dont grant any special powers really, but they have the potential to enhance the skills you bring (faster recharges, fast casts, longer durations).

one thing i think needs to be said, is the fact that you wont have access to all of the max mods, runes, inscriptions, insignia, ect right out of the box on a pvp char. they will have to be unlocked, either by acquiring them with a pve char or gaining points from playing pvp and spending those points to unlock them. you also wont have access to all the skills either. same thing. you'll be give armor with the maximum armor level and weapons with max dmg, but the other max mods with have to be earned.

Skuld · Jan 30, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michiel

Once again, I'm NOT talking about awesome equipment. I'm talking about crappy equipment cleverly combined to create an advantage. I don't want to play WoW because there are not enough effectively different characters. I don't to play Diablo2 because it rewards players with too much free time. Guildwars seems to be a step in the right direction for me, since it rewards skill. That's good. But I'm looking for a game that rewards intelligence and strategy.

The intelligence and strategy will bring you wins

Keithark · Jan 30, 2007, 04:25 PM // 16:25

If you want to check out the game, play PvE in one chapter and see if you like it, if you do and want to PvP then you will need to buy all 3 chapters so you can get all the skills since all skills are not attainable in just one chapter. I would think you would be at a huge disadvantage only having skills from one chapter in PvP. (I may be wrong, maybe you can unlock skills from all chapters in PvP, I am not sure because I have them all)

Michiel · Jan 30, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Small update: Factions wasn't available anymore, so I bought the original. I will still be getting Factions because I want to make an assassin, but I guess I'll just take some time to learn the game with a different character until then.

Edit: This game sure takes a long time to install.

Lonesamurai · Jan 30, 2007, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michiel

Small update: Factions wasn't available anymore, so I bought the original. I will still be getting Factions because I want to make an assassin, but I guess I'll just take some time to learn the game with a different character until then.

Edit: This game sure takes a long time to install.

What do you mean it took a long time to install? do you mean to download all the updates? thats because you bought the first edition, which is now 2 years old and its got a lot to catch up with... PM me your character name and I'll give you a hand in game and give you a few tips to make the game better... hell, i might have a few weapons i can give you to get you started

ss1986v2 · Jan 30, 2007, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michiel

Edit: This game sure takes a long time to install.

well, over a years worth of content and updates addes up pretty quick

Lonesamurai · Jan 30, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1986v2

well, over a years worth of content and updates addes up pretty quick

Well over two years worth and coming upto three actually

manveruppd · Jan 30, 2007, 06:51 PM // 18:51

I'll disagree with moriz, the game the OP wants to play DOES exist, but it's not an MMO: he's basically looking for a game where you could do all the clever item combinations that Interplay's old Infinity Engine games let you do (the Baldurs Gates and Icewind Dales of legend), where it wasn't so much about going for the most powerful weapons and armour but rather to combine the secondary properties and bonuses of different items to give you that powergamer edge (tm) in particular situations

Unfortunately, GW isn't BG2, and I don't think there'll ever be a game quite like BG2

moriz was right that it does come close though, as the element of pre-planning and build-tweaking that you're looking for IS a big part of the game. However, instead of being to do with your equipment, it's to do with picking which 8 skills you pick to put on your skillbar, and exactly how to distribute your 200 attribute points (each character has 8 attributes, 4 for his primary profession and 4 for his secondary, and each skill is associated with an attribute and becomes more powerful the more points you put into that attribute). This might not seem like it gives you anywhere near as many combinations and opportunities for "creative game-breaking"

as the kind of game you're thinking of, but with 8 character classes, from which you can pick any combination of primary and secondary profession (56 combos I think), and literally hundreds of skills and more coming out with each new chapter there's plenty of room for experimentation, and of course co-ordinating your build with your teammates in organised pvp multiplies the complexity and possibilities available to you exponentially.

There's an element of this that also involves equipment, but it's far less developed. There's several runes/insignia to pick from to put on your armour, for instance, so you can choose between boosting your attributes, your health, or your maximum energy level (or other more specialised bonuses). PvE characters used to be able to armour-swap mid-match, as someone mentioned, which was one of the advantages they had over PvP characters, but that's been removed. Both types of characters can still swap weapons as often as they want though (you have 4 weapon slots but that doesn't limit you as you can often your inventory and equip any of the weapons in there). For instance, warriors often carry about a weapon that deals elemental damage that they use to get a small damage bonus when they're beating on other warriors (as warriors tend to have armour bonuses against physical damage but not elemental damage). Many also carry a ranged weapon (wand or bow) even if they're not specced to use it, because they can power-up their adrenal skills from further off before charging into the enemy. You can also switch to a weapon set that gives you a bonus to your current energy at the expense of energy regeneration (which casters often use as a backup-battery to switch to in an emergency), or to ones that give you an energy PENALTY (so that if there's an enemy caster stealing your energy you can hide it from them, switching to your normal set and getting it back only when you need to cast), or between sets that give you bonuses to the casting time and recharge of your spells at the expense of a bit of a health and/or armour. None of this has a major effect though, it's more about getting an extra little bit of edge in efficiency rather than a game-breaking move, whereas choosing which 8 skills to equip before each match can be decisive.

As other people have said though, build is only secondary to how good you are at playing the game. 8 skills and 4 weapon slots doesn't sound like much, but, because the game is pretty fast-paced for an RPG, you'll quickly realise that juggling them all while moving about, tabbing between enemies to see what they're doing, watching your own, your team's and the enemy team's positioning, and watching your health and energy levels as well as your status bar to see what enchantments/hexes/conditions or other effects you have on you, all the while communicating with your team, is quite a handful. The game has an in-built observer mode which makes it easy to copy the builds of the top teams, but learning to play them is quite another matter: you can have the same skills as the top warrior in the game but it'll take ages for you to even get within cruise-missile firing distance of their skill level. Many builds additionally require twitch-level reaction times (a monk throwing that heal in just before a teammate goes down, a mesmer interrupting an enemy caster's spell etc.), and all require knowledge of the skills being used more broadly in the game, not just the ones on your skillbar.

While on the subject of obs mode, I have to note that what you said earlier about meeting "legendary characters that everyone fears to encounter" DOES exist, perhaps more so than in any other online game, since you can see all the top-100 games from all over the world and the game isn't fractured into different servers. Everyone on here will know who Bloodlight Eyes or Lara Valor or Heavy Tengu Armor are, and some of them still use their PvE characters to pvp with simply because their distinctive looks have become as famous as their names.

If you haven't bought the game yet and you want to get a taster of what the game feels like, you can go to gwversus.com where they have videos of matches recorded off observer mode. You will be able to check out how different players move, how often and in what sequence they activate skills, and how the team as a whole moves over the map.

Oh, and the pve in Factions really is widely recognised as being the worst of the three: you level up really quickly and then it gets quite repetitive. So, if you still haven't bought it, I'd seriously go for Nightfall.

EDIT: too slow, good to know you've gone for Prophesies, it's a much better avenue for a new player to learn the game as its pve campaign escalates far more gradually than Factions' and its learning curve is slower and smoother. You miss out on the customisable AI heroes from Nightfall which make pve easier but you'll get a more evenly-paced game.

Michiel · Jan 30, 2007, 07:02 PM // 19:02

I've finished installing, had dinner while the setup ran. I've created a Ranger named Judith Sanguivore. Haven't been able to pick a secondary profession yet, so my plan of making a ranger/assassin might still work out! Any help is, of course, more than welcome!

Lonesamurai · Jan 30, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michiel

I've finished installing, had dinner while the setup ran. I've created a Ranger named Judith Sanguivore. Haven't been able to pick a secondary profession yet, so my plan of making a ranger/assassin might still work out! Any help is, of course, more than welcome!

Oh its definately gonna happen, however, you have to choose a second profession out of the other 5 you currently have a choice from... you will need to get out of the area you are in, then add Factions to your account, then when your character gets to Lions Arch, you can then take your character over to Cantha and you will then have to fight your way through to Senji's corner, a few missions into Factions to be able to change to Assassin secondary...

So not far really

Ponidis · Jan 31, 2007, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michiel

I don't know. I think I'd feel cheated if I spent ages working on my character, and then someone would defeat me by clicking 3 buttons and getting a superior version of me. It'd be like losing a boxing match to a guy who just shoots you in the face with a gun - none of the skill and hard work, 10 times the power.

Before you can obtain a skill or item in PvP you need to unlock it (unlocks are, roughly, based on PvP kills). Similarly, you need to pay money/do missions to get skills or items in PvE. Both types of grind can be hard. If you are not experienced, getting "balthazar faction points" (PvP kills, roughly) can be very, very hard. On the other hand, experienced PvP players have so many "faction points" that they don't know what to do with them.

Therefore, if a PvP player has better items than you, he worked hard to get them (either in PvP or PvE). Being PvP does not provide an immediate advantage. It IS more convenient if you PvP a lot, because you don't need to buy 5 sets of armor for each char and 10 weapons.

Lonesamurai · Jan 31, 2007, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ponidis

Therefore, if a PvP player has better items than you, he worked hard to get them (either in PvP or PvE). .

yeah, kind of defeats the, "Skill over time played", original idea for the game, but oh well...

Jan 30, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07	#29
Michiel Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Jan 2007	Small update: Factions wasn't available anymore, so I bought the original. I will still be getting Factions because I want to make an assassin, but I guess I'll just take some time to learn the game with a different character until then. Edit: This game sure takes a long time to install. Last edited by Michiel; Jan 30, 2007 at 06:10 PM // 18:10..

Jan 30, 2007, 06:51 PM // 18:51	#33
manveruppd Ascalonian Squire Join Date: May 2005	I'll disagree with moriz, the game the OP wants to play DOES exist, but it's not an MMO: he's basically looking for a game where you could do all the clever item combinations that Interplay's old Infinity Engine games let you do (the Baldurs Gates and Icewind Dales of legend), where it wasn't so much about going for the most powerful weapons and armour but rather to combine the secondary properties and bonuses of different items to give you that powergamer edge (tm) in particular situations Unfortunately, GW isn't BG2, and I don't think there'll ever be a game quite like BG2 moriz was right that it does come close though, as the element of pre-planning and build-tweaking that you're looking for IS a big part of the game. However, instead of being to do with your equipment, it's to do with picking which 8 skills you pick to put on your skillbar, and exactly how to distribute your 200 attribute points (each character has 8 attributes, 4 for his primary profession and 4 for his secondary, and each skill is associated with an attribute and becomes more powerful the more points you put into that attribute). This might not seem like it gives you anywhere near as many combinations and opportunities for "creative game-breaking" as the kind of game you're thinking of, but with 8 character classes, from which you can pick any combination of primary and secondary profession (56 combos I think), and literally hundreds of skills and more coming out with each new chapter there's plenty of room for experimentation, and of course co-ordinating your build with your teammates in organised pvp multiplies the complexity and possibilities available to you exponentially. There's an element of this that also involves equipment, but it's far less developed. There's several runes/insignia to pick from to put on your armour, for instance, so you can choose between boosting your attributes, your health, or your maximum energy level (or other more specialised bonuses). PvE characters used to be able to armour-swap mid-match, as someone mentioned, which was one of the advantages they had over PvP characters, but that's been removed. Both types of characters can still swap weapons as often as they want though (you have 4 weapon slots but that doesn't limit you as you can often your inventory and equip any of the weapons in there). For instance, warriors often carry about a weapon that deals elemental damage that they use to get a small damage bonus when they're beating on other warriors (as warriors tend to have armour bonuses against physical damage but not elemental damage). Many also carry a ranged weapon (wand or bow) even if they're not specced to use it, because they can power-up their adrenal skills from further off before charging into the enemy. You can also switch to a weapon set that gives you a bonus to your current energy at the expense of energy regeneration (which casters often use as a backup-battery to switch to in an emergency), or to ones that give you an energy PENALTY (so that if there's an enemy caster stealing your energy you can hide it from them, switching to your normal set and getting it back only when you need to cast), or between sets that give you bonuses to the casting time and recharge of your spells at the expense of a bit of a health and/or armour. None of this has a major effect though, it's more about getting an extra little bit of edge in efficiency rather than a game-breaking move, whereas choosing which 8 skills to equip before each match can be decisive. As other people have said though, build is only secondary to how good you are at playing the game. 8 skills and 4 weapon slots doesn't sound like much, but, because the game is pretty fast-paced for an RPG, you'll quickly realise that juggling them all while moving about, tabbing between enemies to see what they're doing, watching your own, your team's and the enemy team's positioning, and watching your health and energy levels as well as your status bar to see what enchantments/hexes/conditions or other effects you have on you, all the while communicating with your team, is quite a handful. The game has an in-built observer mode which makes it easy to copy the builds of the top teams, but learning to play them is quite another matter: you can have the same skills as the top warrior in the game but it'll take ages for you to even get within cruise-missile firing distance of their skill level. Many builds additionally require twitch-level reaction times (a monk throwing that heal in just before a teammate goes down, a mesmer interrupting an enemy caster's spell etc.), and all require knowledge of the skills being used more broadly in the game, not just the ones on your skillbar. While on the subject of obs mode, I have to note that what you said earlier about meeting "legendary characters that everyone fears to encounter" DOES exist, perhaps more so than in any other online game, since you can see all the top-100 games from all over the world and the game isn't fractured into different servers. Everyone on here will know who Bloodlight Eyes or Lara Valor or Heavy Tengu Armor are, and some of them still use their PvE characters to pvp with simply because their distinctive looks have become as famous as their names. If you haven't bought the game yet and you want to get a taster of what the game feels like, you can go to gwversus.com where they have videos of matches recorded off observer mode. You will be able to check out how different players move, how often and in what sequence they activate skills, and how the team as a whole moves over the map. Oh, and the pve in Factions really is widely recognised as being the worst of the three: you level up really quickly and then it gets quite repetitive. So, if you still haven't bought it, I'd seriously go for Nightfall. EDIT: too slow, good to know you've gone for Prophesies, it's a much better avenue for a new player to learn the game as its pve campaign escalates far more gradually than Factions' and its learning curve is slower and smoother. You miss out on the customisable AI heroes from Nightfall which make pve easier but you'll get a more evenly-paced game. Last edited by manveruppd; Jan 30, 2007 at 07:02 PM // 19:02..

Jan 30, 2007, 02:43 PM // 14:43	#21
moriz ??ber t??k-n??sh'??n Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Canada Profession: R/	if you think there should be "epic" characters created by awesome equipment, then you are playing the wrong game. the game you want to try would be WoW. however, there are "epic" players. their characters are no better than the average pvp ready character, but the way they play the game made them truly amazing. the one thing you should remember from this thread is: GW is not D2 with better graphics. to get good, you play good, and that's all that matters.

Jan 30, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56	#23
moriz ??ber t??k-n??sh'??n Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Canada Profession: R/	unfortunately, the game you want to play does not exist. GW does come close though. your equipment generally won't make or break a character, unless it is truly inferior (using starter armor, etc). and no, the game is not all about the skills you bring. how you play it will matter greatly.

Jan 30, 2007, 04:25 PM // 16:25	#28
Keithark Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Nov 2006 Guild: Be Aggressive B E Aggressive [AGRO] Profession: E/Me	If you want to check out the game, play PvE in one chapter and see if you like it, if you do and want to PvP then you will need to buy all 3 chapters so you can get all the skills since all skills are not attainable in just one chapter. I would think you would be at a huge disadvantage only having skills from one chapter in PvP. (I may be wrong, maybe you can unlock skills from all chapters in PvP, I am not sure because I have them all)

Jan 30, 2007, 07:02 PM // 19:02	#34
Michiel Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Jan 2007	I've finished installing, had dinner while the setup ran. I've created a Ranger named Judith Sanguivore. Haven't been able to pick a secondary profession yet, so my plan of making a ranger/assassin might still work out! Any help is, of course, more than welcome!